Joel Richardson and I recorded a debate with Larry Spargimino several weeks ago.  There are two 25 minute radio programs that are being broadcast across the country today AND tomorrow on AM and FM radio shows.  Additionally the shows are posted on  At this moment, the first show is posted and working properly.  The second show is not yet working.  These shows are highlights of a much longer debate that occurs between Joel and myself.  I believe you will learn a lot and that we both present our point of view very well.  You get to decide which view you believe is true.

SWRC is making available a complete record of the debate which runs almost 95 minutes (almost twice as long as the portions shared on the radio).

Larry called it a “fireside chat” where we each took turns explaining our views and challenging the views of our Christian “opponent”.   Joel was in Kansas City.  I was in Oklahoma city sitting next to Larry.

The following are my notes for a few of the highlights of the debate, PART ONE.

Joel Richardson's Islamic Antichrist
Joel Richardson’s Islamic Antichrist

LARRY:  SWRC does not take a position either for or against the Islamic Antichrist.

Joel, can you share with us what is the Islamic Antichrist view?

JOEL:  This is a blessing.  We should do this this kind of thing more often.

The Bible is a “Jerusalem-centric book”… It is a Middle-Eastern End Time Theory.  It is a geographically focused book.  It describes the neighbors of Israel.  Therefore, we should emphasize that region.

Then we get into arguments why he should be a Muslim leader.  The Muslim’s are not likely to follow a European leader. So we don’t agree with the conventional view.

The Theology of the Antichrist aligns with Islam.  Too many evidential things in the Scriptures, such as the “beheadings”, that strongly hint the Antichrist is a Muslim.

Mistaken Identity: The Case Against the Islamic Antichrist NOW ON KINDLE
Mistaken Identity: The Case Against the Islamic Antichrist NOW ON KINDLE

DOUG:  Joel has developed a very worthy theory.  We are futurists.  Both are Millennialist.  Both believe Antichrist will be incarnated in an individual.  He will be possessed by Satan, the seed of Satan.

I am more of a conventionalist.  Antichrist will be a “globalist”.  His power base is from the West.  The New World Order promoted by the West.  It includes the Anglo-American financial order.  The World Bank.  IMF.  It’s All part of the “Beast system”… The U.S. is the Enforcer of Globalism and New World Order.

We are moving toward a “one world” economic, religious, and political system. There is no question that the Spirit of Antichrist is alive in extreme forms of Islam.  Antichrist, however, is at least equally alive in the elites at the helm of the New World Order, the Illuminati, etc. Luciferianism, not Islam, is the religion of Antichrist.  Antichrist impacts all Kindreds, Nations, Peoples and Tongues.

However, my position has evolved some since I wrote with my co-authors, Douglas Krieger, Dene McGriff, THE FINAL BABYLON.  American Leadership is included in Mystery Babylon.  And I believe our country may be decimated at the beginning of the Gog/Magog war…  The U.S. may be taken out by a surprise attack.  I believe Russia will attack the U.S.

LARRY:  Joel, is America in Bible Prophecy?

JOEL: America is peripheral to Bible prophecy.  The Antichrist Ten Nation confederacy  would be composed of Middle Eastern and African nations.  The epicenter surround Zion.  Antichrist will have some authority across the globe.  The problem with casting the U.S. as key player, as would be seen in many passages such as Daniel 2, 7, 11, 12, Micah 5, and numerous other passages of nations being judged in the context of The Day of the Lord… you have no single clear reference to the U.S. or to Europe.  No scholarly certainty.

DOUG:  Commenting on EZEKIEL 38,39:  This passage, Ezekiel 38:10-13, Interestingly is the core passage that supports the “Psalm 83 War Theory.” Israel is the land of unwalled villages and must be “secure” and “at peace” when it is attacked.  Joel and I would agree it Ezekiel 38-39 is one of the most articulate passages in all of Bible prophecy.  Joel would see it as the same war as Armageddon, I see it from a conventional viewpoint.  There are two distinct wars. It may happen 7 to 10 years before Armageddon.

Psalm 83 theory, it has been assumed the party “coming against the unwalled villages” is Russia, and the land of unwalled villages is Israel.  I provide there is strong evidence it is not Israel.  Verse 13 in particular, Merchants of Tarshish, Sheba and Dedan, and “young lions” points us in a different direction … Who is Tarshish? England, the “kingdom of Tin”.    Who are the “young lions”?  Suggest we talk about Jeremiah 50-51 to consider whether the U.S. is in fact discussed there.

LARRY:  Talk about Ezekiel 38:5, there seems to be a focus on the region of Turkey and so on. Many Middle Eastern nations are listed.

DOUG:  True, the core of the confederacy comes from the Middle East.  But who else may be involved? For 200 years it has been debated.  Is Rosh a reference to Russia? Is it a noun?  Or is it “Chief” Prince? Where Rosh is translated “Chief”?

JOEL:  Rosh… It has been debated by scholars.  Neither of us are scholars, we are teachers.  Our role is to research and work through the source documents.  We must defer to the true scholars.   Is it a proper noun or is it an adjective?

(Joel references a great Hebrew scholar, Daniel Block)… 18 years ago Block wrote one of the most highly regarded commentaries.  He argues it is a descriptive noun.  All Hebrew scholars have defined it as a adjective since.  (Joel’s source said)  “Only those who embrace the Russia view  are the populists.”  To say Russia is the attacker is a minority view. Gog is the Antichrist. So said Wesley, Darby, Scofield, Pink, Bruce, Bullinger, Dake, Fienburg, Ryrie. (Joel reads a long passage from Darby and from Ryrie, noted dispensationalists).

The program for June 1st breaks at this point…

The link to the program to the page of broadcast is HERE.  Look for the program for June 1, 2016.  I hope June 2 will be working by then as well!  You should really enjoy the discussion.

SWRC:  Their ministry is offering two books,  The Islamic Antichrist (Richardson), Mistaken Identity (Woodward), and a 95 minute DVD for $40.00.  Also available from SWRC:  Richardson’s MIDEAST BEAST and Woodward’s THE NEXT GREAT WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.  


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